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Argh on the paper …

2 July, 2009

Argh on the paper

So this may in fact be the dullest paper ever … athough it’s certainly talking about using digitized sources. Well, the ones in databases, at least.

But here’s a related question: ‘vestitionis‘ as in ‘ecce hic testes illius vestitionis‘…

Two very smart people have said that it’s probably a livery of seizin. But did such things exist in C9 Francia? Especially in the east?

8 Comments leave one →
  1. 2 July, 2009 7:10 pm

    Relax; you are probably just overfamiliar with it.

  2. 3 July, 2009 1:09 pm

    I would agree. I've been having misgivings about mine because it seems very like the Abbess Emma paper without the strong character; but, explaining it to someone else reminded me that there was something interesting in ut, and you can rest assured that if you have both data and gender you will have an audience (though not Jinty Nelson, annoyingly, who is moderating a different session at the same time).As to the Latin, could it be referring to the whole action as an investiture? I'd find that easier to believe than a livery, and it's how I'd read something similar in mine.

  3. 3 July, 2009 1:53 pm

    You wouldn't be doing the work if it wasn't important and, face it, some of our preliminary work that gets us to the "good stuff" of history can be at the very least tedious at times.

  4. 3 July, 2009 2:58 pm

    Thanks, Steve and Kelly!Jon — I suppose it *could* be an investiture, but honestly, I'm not certain what all the differences *are* — this is entirely new to me. And the two people who think it's a livery are SDW and PH … although admittedly, they normally deal with much later stuff.I'm hoping to move more into some of the gender stuff, but this seems to also be going towards, "eh — looking at the women is way more interesting, because I'm not seeing patterns for the men." Which is actually GOOD, because I really want to carry on the project on the women! But might not make for the most interesting paper …

  5. 5 July, 2009 11:01 pm

    Well, I would understand by investiture in my stuff, and it's a word that does turn up, some sort of ceremony whereby the land is transferred from the hands of the old owner or his or her representative into those of the new one or his or hers. I guess there might have been a sod of land or, in my area, more likely the charter, when there was one (though finished? or blank? Or what?). There's some cases in Norman documents of doing it with knives (er, as it were) too, so I don't think it needs to be the full-on rite we have the Contest about, just a symbolic enaction of the transfer. Because, when you think about it, there needed to be something for people to see somewhere in the process. What do your guys say they saw in dispute cases, are there any at Fulda and do they talk about the transfer?Here, looking at the date, you're not going to read this before I see you, are you? Well, so we have something to talk about.My word verification is `fixtuira'. If that isn't some obscure rite of property transfer or guarantee, it darn well ought to be. Well done Blogger!

  6. 6 July, 2009 10:33 am

    Well, unless I can get hold of the Thorne article — The BL doesn't seem to have it, and Cambridge Journals online was offline last time I looked …

  7. 6 July, 2009 12:14 pm

    RI OPAC claims it's reprinted in a volume of his essays called English Legal History (London 1985) which the BL seems to have two copies of…

  8. 6 July, 2009 12:46 pm

    Just requested that! I tried the other day, and the system wouldn't let me… for some reason, it had logged me out. Argh!

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