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Formula bleg

25 June, 2009

Formula bleg

Does anyone know/can anyone think of a situation in which we might see the phrase “per manum” for a male donor of property? (for the MA, preferably)

At the moment, I’m thinking it’s pretty much used for female donors…

Update: I’ve just found an interesting variation in my own sources — CDF 613, “signum Ruotgeres qui hanc traditionem potestiva manu quatuor supra memoratorum germanorum rogatu fecit.”

hmmmmm ….

ideas? because this isn’t the same as “trado per manum X”, which you see mostly with widows or spouses …

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6 Comments leave one →
  1. 26 June, 2009 11:21 am

    Not sure I've seen it at all: could you give a context clause?

  2. 26 June, 2009 12:53 pm

    Oh — I've got a few charters that have a woman — almost always a widow — donating property "per manum" of someone (usually a son). Jinty Nelson has a comment in "The Wary Widow" about churchmen being careful to get the assent of sons to a donation of a dos, but in the case I was looking at, it isn't clear that the lands in question were part of a dos.A person on Medieval Studies pointed me at this donation, where the people involved are both men, although one is an abbot — and it's much later and from the west

  3. 29 June, 2009 4:57 pm

    Oh! No, I haven't got anything like that. I have got one Catalan case where it seems that the woman's son is holding the charter for her, but she's still main transactor. The document is E. Junyent i Subirà (ed.), Diplomatari de la Catedral de Vic (segles IX i X), ed. R. Ordeig i Mata (Vic 1980-96), 5 fascs, doc. no. 23, if that helps, but I suppose the Latin would help more. I can come back with that if it might be useful.Tell you where I do see things like this, and that's with Jews in Barcelona, for whom after about 1010 a Christian representative is required. Again, can come back with chapter and verse if it will assist.

  4. 30 June, 2009 4:59 pm

    not sure I need it now, but we might want to talk about it …

  5. 30 June, 2009 10:45 pm

    That extra one you've added is hard on my brane. Is it that he's being asked to confirm that he also makes the donation even though he wasn't physically present at whatever ceremony there was with his four brothers? Or do I just see that kind of possibility in absolutely every possible instance? How would you read it?

  6. 4 July, 2009 1:22 pm

    Actually, I think that the second guy is acting as a proxy

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